Please read the article and comments.
Open Source is about transparency. Talk to the authors and ask for permission or authorization. If they don’t agree, fork the projects and create a new one based on their projects.
Executive Summary
As a novice programmer I learned that releasing code that is GPL’d basically allows people to take ‘your baby’ and make it their own — be prepared for that. Secondly, people will use your code to further their own goals. These goals won’t always line up with your morals and ethics. You don’t have to help them when they have trouble.
Full Text
Recently, I came across a wonderful idea by Paul Stamatiou whereby for every
page on your site, you could have links to a number of social bookmarking sites such that users easily bookmark your work, for visiting at a later date. It was a great idea. Unfortunately, it was kind of clunky and needed to be handcrafted into your WordPress template.
I contacted Paul and asked him if it would be ok if I turned his idea into a plugin, to allow wider access to the wordpress community. He replied shortly to say that indeed, go ahead and spread the good word. I spent many hours, learning my PHP, and turning his idea into a plugin which I released to the Wordpress community under the GPL as WP-Sociable. Over the course of a few days, I worked out a few minor kinks and added some functionality. The latest version, 0.35 does the job great — but it could have been better. I knew this, I wanted a back-end menu where users could check off the websites they would like to display, I wanted users to be able to determine the order of bookmarking sites as they appeared. I intended to use a method of making sure that users had the latest and greatest version of the code. A great idea and a simple plugin.
I released version 0.35 (beta) of WP-Sociable using a GPL License. Under the GPL anyone is free to take the source code and use it however they want, as long as they too release the source code [in a nutshell].
Upon release of the code into the wild two things became apparent very quickly:
1. I found that a new plugin had been released which copied the idea and graphic files from my code as well as providing some enhancements to the code while providing no feature additions, and;
2. People would ask me for help implementing the plugin on their racist/ ignorant/ or otherwise bigotry laden site.
I’ll admit that I am pissed that someone nullified all the time I spent on the project. But, I’m a big boy and I can see that the implementation of the copied idea is better, cleaner, and more elegant — I can respect that because I am not an educated programmer. I am a hack who is trying to learn php by creating something from simply an idea.
As I see it, the GPL is supposed to foster a community that is empowered by everyone working together towards a common goal. Why couldn’t the author simply have sent me the changes — why couldn’t we have worked together? Why didn’t the author even acknowledge the idea’s origin?
I think I know the answer: given that his code is completely different than what I have written, he wants the credit, the associated traffic to his blog, and the prestige that the wordpress community may reign down upon him (ok, that last part was a little sarcastic).
To deal with the second issue, one of ideals….
I had not even thought of this before: surely there are people out there spreading hate via open-source software. I think there is little damage people could do with my code, but ethically should I support people who are obviously moral dolts? The answer was clear: hells no. I learned quickly, just because I can, doesn’t mean I will.
So what have I learned, as a novice php code writer trying to empower the wordpress community?
Frankly, I am dismayed and downtrodden — I see no future in my wordpress contributions if any johnny-come-lately can simply pick up what I have worked hard on and spin it into gold and take the credit. Secondly, ignorant people will get no help from me – they are lucky enough to get to use my code and ideas.
Epilogue:
This whole issue has been raised at many sites, but I like the discussion as presented here. The quote at the beginning of this story was lifted from the linked discussion. I think it sums up what has happened here perfectly. I bear no ill will towards the new plugin and its author. I do not think that Not Invented Here (NIH) syndrome applies anylonger.
08 Mar 06
8:53 pm
Hi,
I am truly sorry that you feel I stole your code. It was not my intention and I am hereby offering you a full apology.
That having been said, while I read joel on a daily basis, I do think the person who posted the quote you put at the top (not Joel, someone posting on his blog) is a bit off base. There is nothing in the GPL or in any code of ethics I’ve ever read that says that any author is required to notify the original author before forking the project.
But in reality, I didn’t fork your project. I used your graphics. Even then I gave you full credit in the code and on the project page for that. I re-wrote the code from scratch. I’m not the only one who has released a project like this, I’m just the only one who gave you credit for the graphics. (I have no idea if noteworthy used your graphics or created them from scratch)
Please don’t stop contributing to WordPress because you feel I’ve slighted you.
Again, I do apologize.
Sincerely,
=C=
08 Mar 06
9:50 pm
Frankly, I think you are being childish.
You were not the first person to have the idea of having a bookmark link on a website.
While I appreciate Sociable and the work you did on it, Cal’s plugin is not a fork of your code, its a completely written from scratch.
All he did is use the graphics, which were just graphics that you shrunk down from their originals. And he even credited you for that.
Really, I hope this doesn’t dissuade you from further Wordpress or non-Wordpress contributions, but stop claiming that your idea was stolen or copied.
Also, look through a list of wordpress plugins. There are often many plugins addressing a single need. Your plugins can co-exist.
08 Mar 06
10:17 pm
It happens, even with the best of intentions, sometimes with the worst. It’s part of doing open-source dev. Actually, it’s part of doing software dev period — plenty of ideas are borrowed and built upon, even in commercial dev. I can understand why you were upset, but don’t think the worst of folks, and don’t give up because of this.
08 Mar 06
10:48 pm
Hi Cal,
Thanks for your reply. I bear no ill will towards you at all. In fact, I purposely left you and your name out of the whole thing. Heck, you saw an opportunity and jumped on it — good on you.
I set out to learn about the internet and how it works about 3 years ago. I started with frontpage, dreamweaver, now just a notepad. I’ve learned so much about what it takes to make a website tick. Originally, I just wanted my own webpage, and email address for me and some friends. Since then, I have learned about programming enough that I can make things work if I really really want them too
This whole thing is one big learning process. Perhaps I was a little harsh with the johnny come lately line, I was just frustrated. To address some things in your comment:
- I don’t feel like you stole my code. You didn’t. Don’t worry. I never said that and I hope I didn’t leave that impression. There is nothing wrong with someone coming along and making something better — its called capitalism.
- The GPL doesn’t require acknowledgment, but my background and the things that I do in the real world do require it, so I kind of expect it. Thats my problem, not yours. You did nothing wrong.
- I won’t stop contributing (meager as it may be) to the community, but I am wiser, I have learned.
- Honestly, no apology is needed but I thank you for your good wishes. I respect you for coming here and making your thoughts known.
I have been writing this comment, other have posted their thoughts. To Cody: childish? maybe, but I’m just a man. A man with feelings. Can’t you respect a mans feelings… For the love of god man think of the children! And to Ed: I agree, thanks for your comments.
Which is why (crossing fingers) a new version of sociable will shortly be released. Competition is healthy. Things can coexist. Life goes on. This post was as much for me to remember these two things (which somehow seem obvious to so many) as for others to learn about what I am learning. Enough already…
Cheers
08 Mar 06
11:32 pm
I do respect your feelings.
Perhaps childish was harsh, I was just referring to phrases like “stole” and “copied”.
Like I said, I think you did good work and look forward to future versions of Sociable.
09 Mar 06
12:03 am
Ahhh… that was a play on ‘The KKK stole my baby away’ by the ramones which was written when Johnny Ramone supposedly stole Joey’s girlfriend.
On review, it appears the title is actually, ‘The KKK took my baby away’. My bad. I had the spirit of ‘took’ but the literal was stole. Anyway, childish is harsh, but I have thick skin. And besides, if I took to heart what some random internet dude says every time then I’d be a raging psychopath. Or at least some kind of stress ball. The kind that goes to work with a gun one day.
Thanks for your compliments, and BTW, I really like your alexadex plugin. Smart, you created it while I was wishing something like that existed. A wish come true.
09 Mar 06
4:47 pm
Regardless of this particular scenario I’ve been thinking about the subject a lot lately and the fact that things like GPLs and CCs even have to exist bothers me. It’s really a trickle-down effect of big corporations or big jackasses trying to take advantage of our copyright laws. Today everyone copyrights, patents, or trademarks everything they possibly can. The abstract nontangibles that businesses/people “own” these days is way out of hand. How would we ever have gotten to the point that we have if the brilliant minds of those from the past had not been allowed to freely extrapolate on the ideas and works of others? Abuse of copyrights, patents, TMs, etc really hinder progress which is usually good for business. It’s all about the bottom line.
Don’t get me wrong, I like the spirit of the GPLs and CCs I just hate the fact that they have to exist at all. I’d love to have a FIA (Fuck-It-All) License to just allow people to take my ideas, designs, code, whatever and modify/use them for whatever. The problem with that is that because of the way things are, some schmuck would likely turn around and claim legal rights to it asap. Thanks to the morons and the commercialization of virtually everything these days we NEED to have things like GPLs and CC Licences, sometimes even to just protect ourselves from responsibility.
Oddly enough I took a dig on the corporate side of this stuff on my playground/never-to-be-finished-before-the-Internet-eats-itself-blog here:
http://www.disconnectthedots.net/ja/humor/for-immediate-release.html
Hope you don’t mind my occassional rants, haha.
29 Apr 06
2:13 pm
I can relate to that… But thinking loudly… What about a conversion of the plugin to a different system, for example as a phpWebSite module? Would you also see that as taking your baby away? Or more as a “spinning the idea further” thing?
Best regards,
Rene C. Kiesler!
29 Apr 06
2:29 pm
Rck,
Take it and run with it. You should know, Peter at push.cx/sociable took over development of the plugin and turned it into something really special. I’d look over that one before messing with mine. Drop a link again if you do make a phpwebsite module.
Cheers!
02 May 06
3:32 am
Quote:
The GPL doesn’t require acknowledgment
The GPL is a licence that grants someone certain rights for your code = the artifacts you produce, not the idea. The things you have a copyright on. This is the scope for the GPL. The GPL *does* require aknowledgement.
Quotes from the GPL:
GNU GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE
TERMS AND CONDITIONS FOR COPYING, DISTRIBUTION AND MODIFICATION
Activities other than copying, distribution and modification are not
covered by this License; they are outside its scope
You may copy and distribute verbatim copies of the Program’s
source code as you receive it, in any medium, provided that you
conspicuously and appropriately publish on each copy an appropriate
copyright notice
Quotes end.
You have the copyright on your work. Noone may change it and remove your name from it.
Quote:
my background and the things that I do in the real world do require
[acknowledgment], so I kind of expect it.
Academic background, right? What you seem to refer to is the idea behind the code. And this is something complete seperated from the copyright question on you artefacts the GPL deals with. Don’t confuse these two, and please don’t blame the GPL, it does not cover ideas.
And if your plugin had been closed-sourced, it would not have prevented someone from redoning the graphics and writing the code from scratch (which he has done, your code was not needed anyway).
Therefore no, “The GPL stole my baby away” is not true.
02 May 06
3:52 am
Martin, did you actually read the comments or did you just want to impress with your knowledge about the GPL? What exactly is it you are trying to prove with your post?
Also, did you read about the “and take the credit.” part? Where’s the difference between “take the credit” and “You have the copyright on your work. Noone may change it and remove your name from it.”?
02 May 06
5:52 am
There is no connection between choosing the GPL and the other plugin implementing the same idea without mentioning “deepthoughts” plugin. This is the point. Do you need some more hand-holding to explain this to you, rck?
Giving credit to an idea (which is a good thing) is a cultural/social thing, not due to legal documents. In academia as well as in free software.
02 May 06
6:39 am
Thanks, I’m straight, I don’t desire hand-holding with you. Besides that, there are quite a few miles between us.
So again, what are you trying to say? Yes, culturally/socially, it would be nice if, but it’s not law to do so? And that’s why the heading is chosen wrong (but the content makes sense anyway)?
02 May 06
9:23 am
Martin,
I expect acknowledgement of my ideas. To do otherwise could be construed as plagiarism. Regardless, even though my background is academic, consider a business setting: I’d be a fool to let someone else take the credit for a good idea of mine. They would get the accolades (pay raise, promotion) instead of me. Granted, competing business often steal each others ideas and this is why we have the patent system.
Did the GPL steal ‘my baby’? Technically no. But as others have pointed out already, the spirit of the thing differs slightly from the implementation. I could have released a closed source version, but remember — this plugin wasn’t even my idea.
As I said earlier, this whole ’shebang’ is a learning process. The code that I hack together and release now is generally not GPL. I don’t want people selling my work for profit. In effect, I’m trying to say, “use this to make money, but don’t sell it.”
08 Jun 06
11:58 am
I think work should be done for the sake of what you wish to do. If you make something in order to gain recognition then there is something wrong with your motives. Men should live autonomously and based upon their own will and power, not to serve, show, or make for others.
deepthought “As I said earlier, this whole ’shebang’ is a learning process. The code that I hack together and release now is generally not GPL. I don’t want people selling my work for profit.”
And that is what is wrong in the world, people trying to impose their wishes upon others. You can’t hold anyone morally accountable for their actions except yourself. So what if someone profits from your idea… Why do you want to hold them down? You are obviously not trying to profit, so why can’t they?
08 Jun 06
2:16 pm
Hi Tantaman,
How can you suggest people not impose their wishes on others while, in the same breath, suggest that your way is better than mine? Hypocrisy! Consider: “And that is what is wrong in the world, people trying to impose their wishes upon others.” The only way to get things done is to impose one’s will. Its called willpower — its both a very positive and negative force in society.
And, as I’m sure you are aware, society holds people morally accountable all the time. I like society. I don’t like the anarchy that you speak of. The way I read your comment, your vision of the world is one where anyone can do anything they like and not be held accountable because being accountable would mean that, “someone is imposing their wishes upon others.” For example, what if I ripped your left arm clean off. Is it wrong to rip your arm off? Who says so? What if I needed your arm to do my job? A vast minefield of conundrums await your point of view.
I subscribe to the theory of, I created it, so I will attempt to control it. Let me be clear: the plugins for wordpress that I have released since Sociable, have generally been under the most free of terms. The only exception is that you cannot sell them. You can sell installing them, setting them up, customizing them, but you can’t put up a zip file of it and charge people for downloading. Why? Because that’s what I morally believe. Its my will, and I impose it.
Hypocrisy #2: “Men should live autonomously and based upon their own will and power, not to serve, show, or make for others.”
Sounds great, but even you don’t believe this. How do I know this you might ask — because you left a comment on my website espousing your particular views. Doesn’t leaving your ideas around on others’ websites contradict the part about will, serving, showing, and making for others? I mean, you could have just made a mental note that you don’t agree with my stance. But by actually taking time and typing out your POV you contradict your own POV.
Not only that, but you run a website where you discuss philosophy! How can a person who subscribes to your beliefs (specifically, making something for recognition) also run a website where you discuss them publicly? Why even drop your link in your comment? It couldn’t have been for publicity… could it? Why comment on your website about the number of subscribers you have if truly believe that doing something for recognition means you are doing it for the wrong reasons?
“You are obviously not trying to profit, so why can’t they?” Wrong. I am obviously trying to profit. But, perhaps you don’t see it the way I do. I am not trying to profit monetarily from directly selling the code. RATHER, I am profiting from learning how to craft code and solve problems. The neural connections that my brain makes allow me to solve other problems I encounter which, in turn, allow me to survive. People pay me to solve problems for them, and they see through my work with wordpress that I can solve problems.
There are so many contradictions in your comment that I find it almost completely without logic. I hope I have both helped you understand where I am coming from, as well as help you with your personal philosophic catch 22’s. I’ll be the first to admit I’m wrong if proven so. I run this website to learn (profit). In order to learn you have to make mistakes… have I made one in my analysis?
08 Jun 06
4:37 pm
It is your prerogative to try to rip off my arm, if you like.
Society has consequences for my actions, as everything has consequences, but it can not truly hold me morally accountable.
My action in posting was to the effect of learning and growing, it was a self serving action. I saw that you actually responded to those who replied to your posts and I wanted to see what more you had to say on the topic.
By profit I meant monetary. If you are just trying to profit through learning, it shouldn’t be a big deal that someone steals your idea as you can still develop it on your own time and maybe learn something from their stealing.
Philosophies can never be directly discussed without contradiction because of the nature of words and semantics. The word ‘nice’ used to mean ’stupid’ in its original form. If a word can change so drastically for all of man kind it must change greatly from person to person, and sentences are even worse.
My blog? I don’t expect replies. The blog is made mainly for me to iron out those personal catch 22’s you mentioned, as you can see from its spotty style of writing and few elaborations (read on, I am sure you are asking yourself why I just don’t make a private blog).
As I am still not yet grown / am still growing up I am sure my opinions and ideas will change wildly and this post might seem absurd to me (or just poorly written and explained), which is another reason I keep my blog. I noticed on my first ever blog how much I had changed and how much of a stranger to myself I had become.
The link in my comment? It is put there so that if someone is interested it would be possible to have a similar discussion as this. Its a self serving means, and not a means to recognition and fame. Also, many of the things posted on my blog are there at the request of friends (needing a link to some information, recaping a conversation, whatever), as well as the survival point you mentioned earlier (which somewhat creates another discrepancy with my original post).
My first post was quickly written and not very well thought out, I will try not to make that mistake again although I may be making it with this post.
Thanks for the reply.
I do greatly like the point you make in this section of your reply:
“I am profiting from learning how to craft code and solve problems. The neural connections that my brain makes allow me to solve other problems I encounter which, in turn, allow me to survive.”
I don’t know many people who take such a nice logical and objective standpoint to life and themselves.
You seem like a very intelligent person and I am sure I would like to be able to call you my friend in real life (although I doubt you would call me the same).
Now after writing this reply and stopping the lying:
Main thing, I though that your post was a wasted effort and seemed like whining to me so I just made a quick, dumb, and flame-like reply. And now I realize that this reply was made in defense of my original reply and is pretty much worthless, so I suppose we should just scrap everything because I really and truly do not see much of a problem with your post as long as it was not whining. Also, I really have not thought out or ascribed to those beliefs which I posted (I just finished reading “The Moon is a Harsh Mistress” in which some of those ideas are the prevalent themes), I was just being dumb and stirring up trouble, because I always like to see what it incurs and find out what people are thinking when given the chance. What those ideas mean to me and why they come out to in words is also vastly different.
09 Jun 06
5:05 am
Wow, intellectual conversation on a blog! The internet must be coming to and end soon.
T: At first glance it looked to me as if you could be leaning towards some of Ayn Rand’s Objectivism ideals with nods towards “rational self-interest” and the dismissal of altruism as motive. I could tell it wasn’t old-school flame-bait in your post, yet there was no way to know if you were a conflicted zealout or someone that enjoyed fostering philisophical and logical debate. I’m glad it was the latter.
I used to enjoy civilized debate quite a bit myself, but these days my cognitive abilities are hampered by years of illness and with my sharpness and mental clarity gone (not to mention my memory) I abstain fearing that I will say something (or not say something) I know will make me feel like a fool afterwards even if noone else picks up on my flaw.
I am however still a good source of recommendations for reading material. If you by chance haven’t read much Ayn Rand I feel it may interest you given the nature of the ideas you displayed here. I’m far from subscribing to a lot of what she presents but some of the main ideas put forth dealing with the individual in relation to themselves and society are refreshingly thought-provoking. For a more scientific twist, Talbot’s The Holographic Universe is a modern view of David Bohm’s work intertwined with parallel thoughs from other cultures/resources. At a young age, it really laid some groundwork for me developing my own ideas about how things work and letting them evolve over the years. Anyway, I have no idea what you’ve read or what you wish to read, but let me know if you’d like suggestions (I have many that are much more obscure than these two, hehe).
Cheers,
Jā
13 Jun 06
8:26 pm
Thanks for the reply, I’ll be sure to give some of Ayn Rand’s stuff a read.
You are right, the interest did die pretty quickly.
Noticing how quickly interest dies in these topics has really changed my outlook, I guess intellectual matters are generally too disconcerting and difficult to discuss to keep a large interest.
It is nice to see others who are interested though.
13 Jun 06
9:58 pm
Fear not! Sadly, real world responsibilities take me away from the Internet for long stretches. I’m back now so happy to respond and discuss. Intellectual matters are not disconcerting and difficult for most people however, they don’t appear to affect their day to day lives and so they (the people) watch American Idol or Fear Factor instead of thinking about ‘important stuff’ like Ayn Rand (whom I haven’t read, mainly because her books are freaking huge and I like my philosophy boiled down).
I still argue that I am trying to profit monetarily by releasing plugins. Not only do I get some meager adsense earnings, but I also profit from the social capital created from the many people who enjoy what I release. That capital helps me not only build interesting social links between people, but also brings business links too. Potential customers see my website, observe the quality and thought that goes into it, and can hire me and my services to help their online needs. Its win win.
But profit isn’t my sole motivation — I like helping others. It could be argued that by helping others it makes me feel good, so in the end I just like making myself feel good and I happen to do it though helping. But then I start to loose interest because I’m a pragmatist and thinking about stuff too long means you aren’t actually doing anything.
Having done enough school and too many philosophy courses (3 pre-requisites ugg), I can honestly say that I don’t have much patience for scholarly debate surrounding philosophies. I am of the opinion (similar to the one espoused in your initial comment) that anyone can do whatever the hell they want and believe whatever they want. My only caveat is that society will judge you (with laws and such), I will judge you, and that I (by the above right) can do whatever the hell I want about whatever it is you are doing (subject to the law and all that).
If I really did rip off your arm I’d feel pretty bad, and the law would come down on me, and maybe we would meet up on Oprah for some kind of tearful apology and explanation when I become paroled 2-5 years later. Maybe you’d get a book deal and I would write the foreword.
Anyway, my style of blogging (if you will) is slow and steady. I take a long time to write posts, I don’t just post my daily links or any of that crap. The pace is slower here thats all. Stick around and we (I’m sure) can have many good conversations and carry-ons. You and I aren’t too different (seemingly), I think that maybe I’m more of a pragmatist and a realist than you (maybe).
14 Jun 06
12:52 am
I find, and have literally been told by my younger brother, that if it takes more than 2 minutes it’s too long. That applies to blog posts/responses and he was talking more specifically about email. I write him long emails and he usually doesn’t respond. When he does it’s usually just one or two quick lines to answer one of the 3-5 questions posed.
At first I thought it was a Generation X vs Generation AOL thing but even looking at my meager blog stats from the few visitors I do get, hehe, it holds true there as well. Almost all visitors either immediately leave or they stay for an average of around 2 minutes. There aren’t to many that stray from that pattern.
Maxpower has a larger audience of course, so maybe he could share some insight on this with what his stats show as far as that goes.
I find it interesting how much our methods of communication have changed over time and what has affected or been affected by these changes.
Even just related to online communication, I was on Compuserve back in the day, hehe, and we used to write long emails and forum posts (well, what people today would consider long) and then log on with Navcis or the like and upload/download the info and log off as quick as possible since we had to pay for time online back then. There weren’t 5million other things to distract us so we focused on and had time for decent communications.
Welcome back btw oh Powerful one! Go look at the wiki.
Jā
05 Aug 06
9:21 pm
Activities other than copying, distribution and modification are not
covered by this License; they are outside its scope by someone I forgot the nick.
What you meant here is if, and I say IF, “Sociable” *WAS* a Trademark *THEN* you will have a case here but since it is not….
The idea… Well! In some countries they have patented the ideas, which is somehow funny
The GNU/GPL — and most of the other Open Source Licenses are more know as Copyleft and they were made so knowledge won’t be stuck. By the way, those licenses are just amendments to the Copyright International Treaties.
Nice article list here about the (dis)adventures of GPL.
You should also read something about What is Copyright?
Relax. We have so much important things to work on…
24 Oct 06
4:24 am
“What if I take someone else’s writings, text, HTML or graphic image and change it around to suit my needs? I own the “new” version, right?”
“If you did any of that with the original owner’s permission, and according to his/her terms and conditions than you own the “new” version. If not you may be committing copyright infringement and/or plagiarism.”
Truth speaks.
13 Mar 07
2:13 pm
I think yoiu missed the point of the GPL . He didn;t take you stuff away - he can’t . He must return any changes to you. So his changes belong as much to you as you stuff to his.
Word press is a very good place to start. Learn how the whole thisg works adn you never know you may want to fork it fro yourself later.
No free hel for the free loaders. If the want your help, bug fixes implementations anything- they pay - you develop - thats the nature of the beast. the more core you becoem to the project the better off you become.
Get your head around this, get back in there and start peddling. The greatest coders always win in this game in the end.